Category Archive | Debate
April 05, 2006 | Wednesday
Has anyone noticed?
You probably haven’t noticed the increasingly frantic headlines appearing on the SPEAK website in recent weeks. After all, apart from animal rights fanatics and the odd journalist, we doubt anyone bothers to look at their website. Their recent posts have included the following headlines:
Voice of the voiceless
Not in My Name
IS ANYONE OUT THERE LISTENING?
Distinguishing the Truth from the Lies
It’s a bit pitiful really. Maybe they are frustrated by the noise injunction which means they cannot simply drown out the voices of anyone who disagrees with them. Or maybe they are only just beginning to realise that nobody thinks SPEAK has anything worth saying on this debate.
One-day they might start to face the facts. The only reason anyone takes any notice of SPEAK is because of the unpleasant disruption which they cause, and because it is the closest the media can get to any comment on the activities of the Animal Liberation Front in Oxford. Since so many of the SPEAK ringleaders have criminal convictions relating to animal rights extremism, they have only themselves to blame for their predicament.
March 28, 2006 | Tuesday
OxGoss knocks Bailey off his high horse
By
Tigger | Filed in
Debate /
Unless you’ve been lost in the Outback for the last year or so, you’ll know that there’s a heated debate centred on the fair city of Oxford. This has spawned many discussion threads on an internet chat forum, www.oxfordgossip.co.uk, about the new Oxford University biomedical research centre and animal research in general.
Now your gut reaction might be that RDS is closely monitoring this and posting every 5 minutes – but happily for us (because we’re busy enough with successful complaints to the ASA about PETA and Europeans for Medical Progress; providing good info on our website; etc etc; thank you very much) Oxford is filled with intelligent and informed people who, as you’d expect, are more than capable of carrying the debate.
One in particular has caught my eye and I’d like to take my hat off to JC who has posted sensibly and constructively, often in the face of crass stupidity and wilful ignorance, without losing his/her cool.
In one discussion thread s/he highlights a few points about someone close to our hearts, Jarrod Bailey the ‘scientific director’ of Europeans for Medical Progress. Well, credit to Bailey for being one of the very few scientists (or is he the only?) to speak for the animal rights movement who is actually published, more than Ray Greek has ever managed… BUT before Bailey twists his arm patting himself on the back he should consider two points: (i) the merits of two recent papers are in doubt and may be withdrawn (see GeorginaTheGiraffe’s recent blog entry) – oh dear; and (ii) unfortunately for Bailey, the papers he has managed to publish display the fact that he’s a hypocrite for all to see…
In his role as EMP’s scientific director Bailey frequently goes on record claiming that animal research provides no beneficial information that can be extrapolated to humans… except, as JC points out on Oxford Gossip (Scientists against vivisection? Jarrod Bailey?), Bailey has published papers whose results relied on using products derived from animals – antibodies. Yup, rather than prove everyone else wrong by developing some other detection system that will work better than the current animal-reliant model, Bailey has opted for the easy (or is that ‘only’) route and swallowed his beliefs, falling off his high horse in the process.
For those who might not know the ins and outs of antibodies, they provide a very handy detection system the very nature of which relies on antibodies derived from a variety of animals. Seeing as JC provides the best and simplest explanation I’ve seen, I won’t reinvent the wheel… I’ll just warn you that once you start reading those discussion threads the rampant stupidity, lack of understanding and woeful ignorance will boggle your mind. As another OxGoss regular puts it to an antiviv/ animal rights contributor after a particularly spectacular display of obtuse ignorance…
Tryptamine (post #10 in the discussion thread)
Look, you have access to the internet. This sort of ignorance is not an excuse. Look up a good, science website (not propaganda) and read about what antibodies actually are. By displaying such total absence of the slightest grasp of what you’re talking about, you’re letting your side down.
In case you’re wondering what provoked this reaction, it was in response to the following (spelling mistakes, bad grammar and punctuation abuse are Greenworlds’ own):
greenworlds (post #5 in the discussion thread)
Not sure I understand what you are saying..anti-sheep antibodies are you now saying that sheep are viruses? I can’t see your logic at all...what are you assocating gaots and sheep and human being...are the mad scientists at work again...Maybe they could turn be into a goat. What I’m saying is use human DNA..died or alive..use the technology available for research not the primative ones.
With this kind of intellect on display, all I can say is rather them (JC, Tryptamine etc) than me – I’m not too patient!
And not forgetting the main point of this blog, I’ll use JC’s apt comments one final time to summarise:
JC (post #1 in the discussion thread)
So Jarrod Bailey opposes animal experiments and calls them meaningless - except when he uses the products of animal experiments in his own work (antibodies) ...oh, and previous animal experiments aren’t meaningless when written up by Bailey for scientific journals.
I wonder if Jarrod can spell “hypocrite” ?
<Wrap up...>
A small question of big numbers
By
Zebedee | Filed in
Debate /
Maybe Professor Jonathan Wolff read our blog Horses for Courses, in which we were critical of his oversimplification of the numbers of animals used in different areas of research. His article in today’s Education Guardian Killing softly is much fairer.
As an academic philosopher who visited animal labs while a member of the Nuffield Council on Bioethics working party (see their in-depth report The Ethics of Research Involving Animals), he is comfortable with conditions for lab animals:
“I was taken to university and pharmaceutical labs, as well as a contract research facility. All the animals I saw were kept in far better conditions than those in the smelly pet shop where I had recently purchased a hamster. It was a world away from the battery chicken farm I worked on as a teenager. I was surprised by how orderly everything looked. I saw much less pain and suffering than I was expecting.”
He continues:
"…while pain and suffering are almost entirely avoided, the death of the animal seems to be of no consequence, at least as far as the current regulations are concerned. Animal pain is taboo; animal death is all in a day’s work….One reason for feeling disquiet might be based on a belief that every animal is valuable in itself, and so taking its life is morally problematic. Many people will reply that an animal life does not matter in itself; all that matters is what happens to the animal during its life."
Public opinion research has shown that people have sometimes contradictory but often quite sophisticated attitudes. In fact, what they tend to do is weigh potential animal suffering against potential medical benefits. The numbers – or should one say deaths – of animals in research don’t enter the equation. How could they in our meat-eating society? We eat 300 times more animals than we use in research. Maybe we just don’t want to think about the numbers.
Also in today’s Education Guardian, but not online, a profile of RDS’s chair Professor Nancy Rothwell. Maybe before they put it online they can correct two important errors:
"a former chair of the Research Defence Society”
“it’s our job to say this is how many animals we use, this is what happens to them, this is what happens to the results, but to say therefore you must accept it."
The first is obvious (she was still our chair last time I looked), the second less so: I assume one little word is missing: it should read
"it’s our job to say this is how many animals we use, this is what happens to them, this is what happens to the results, but not to say therefore you must accept it."
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March 22, 2006 | Wednesday
A sign of the times?
Apart from an excellent article in the Guardian and a few other papers, there was only minimal media coverage of today’s announcement from the Advertising Standards Authority to uphold five complaints against the animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA). This may come as a disappointment to some of us. It is, after all, nice to see the systematic misinformation from antivivisection groups publicly exposed.
But maybe it is a sign of the times. The medical benefits of animal research are becoming well-known. And the scientific and medical consensus on its value is overwhelming. The mainstream media don’t need much more convincing. From that point of view, demonstrating that antivivisection groups use false information and wrong arguments just isn’t that newsworthy any more. We have actually made a lot of progress in recent years!
February 27, 2006 | Monday
Animal Aid shown the door
By
Tigger | Filed in
Debate /
How foolish and/or arrogant do you have to be to join an chat forum where serious discussions about a controversial topic are high on the agenda, and with your first post ever start a new thread in the following high-handed way?
Andre Menache
Newly Matriculated Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1
Animal experiments = bad science
Please inform yourselves by reading about some of the animal research being conducted at Oxford: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/viv/shame.htm
Poor Andre received quite a drubbing. These are the first three responses:
i have already read that, just after it was posted on the other thread.
It highlights very few examples of tests, and doesn’t even display those as being valueless. I don’t understand how it is supposed to change my mind?
- stickyfiddle (2nd year) posts: 45
Please inform yourself by getting off your ass and getting a job
Dirty doley
- abuse (Fellow of All Souls) posts: 185
Yep, been there, read that. Contains details of scientific experiments which have contributed to scientific knowledge, described to make them seem as “omg extra cruel” as possible.
Not impressed.
Try again?
- debutante posts: 328
You can see Andre’s post and the subsequent discussion thread on Oxford Gossip, but be warned that it did degenerate a little after that on both sides of the debate for a while. However, reason was redeemed by a ‘fresher’ (that’s a first year student to those of you outside the UK, but on OxfordGossip denotes someone with a certain number of posts).
Andre (if that really is you) :
Can I just remind you that a year ago, you had the opportunity to speak at the Oxford Union debate on animal testing, and were given by all standards a completely fair hearing - 10 minutes to talk, uninterrupted, in front of an audience of Oxford students, many of them regular debaters and debate-goers. Even before Oxford students were radicalised by constant death-threats and arson attacks, you totally failed to convince anyone: almost everything you said was debunked comprehensively by Simon Festing as well as the other speakers, and in the end you lost the debate by a margin of 5 to 1. Several speakers, including student speakers in the floor debate, asked you to comment on the tactics of the animal rights movement, something which you entirely failed to do in your speech, and when one speaker explicitly asked you to talk about Animal Aid’s condemnation of the injunction (which stops you threatening us or photographing us), and wanted to know what was so bad about not being able to kill us, you totally brushed aside the question and refused to comment. Andre, you’ve had your chance already, and everybody was able to see how vacuous and empty you were back then. I’d suggest you don’t come back for a second helping.
Helsinki Dusk (Fresher)
If this carries on, then RDS will be redundant! Bring on the happy day when we are no longer needed.
<Wrap up...>
It's the radicalism, stupid
By
Stonefish | Filed in
Debate /
Or so one might say to PeTA and PCRM (with apologies to the Clinton campaign) if they’re wondering why allies seem thin on the ground right about now. From US comrades-in-arms Americans for Medical Progress, Stonefish has learned that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA) and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) are having a wee spot of bother getting health organisations to disavow the use of animals in biomedical research. In a recent ‘action alert,’ PeTA requested that its supporters help the Council on Humane Giving find a ‘cruelty-free diabetes charity.’
Now, for starters, the Council on Humane Giving is a PCRM front. Anyone familiar with PCRM (through either the likes of Tigger in this blog or other myriad web exposés, such as that at the ActivistCash.com) would be suspicious already. The Council’s stated aim is to get charities to sign a pledge that they will not fund or conduct animal experiments. If a charity signs the pledge it gets to display a bunny-fied ‘Humane Charity Seal of Approval.’ As PeTA’s action alert shows, however, the American Diabetes Association and the Diabetes Research & Wellness Foundation both chose not to sign the pledge. Of course, that could be because PeTA’s recommended method of persuasion is for supporters to ‘demand the [ADA] stop animal research.’ Guess nobody at PeTA/PCRM was ever disciplined as a two-year-old. Word to the wise: demands don’t work. Now finish your tempeh burger and you can have some soy ice cream . . .
More likely, these groups simply won’t give up their quest for life-saving research – some of which involves animals – in order to join forces with the truth-twisting likes of PeTA and PCRM. How twisty? A look at the Council’s approved charities gives you a good idea. Pledging not to support animal research must have been easy for many of these charities since they have absolutely nothing to do with animal research. To wit: Action Against Hunger supplies nutrition, water and sanitation, food security, and health programmes in times of emergency or disaster; Lifegains provides specialised child foster care; The Magic Path gives free gifts of magic tricks to terminally ill children. I could go on, but I’m sure you get my drift.
On the other hand, charities like Gay Men’s Health Crisis have undeniable connections to animal research, which contributes to the search for disease cures. Their appearance on the list is presumably meant to give the impression that they feel medical progress can occur without the use of animals. But closer examination reveals this to be yet more disingenuousness. GMHC’s mission is to reduce HIV/AIDS and help people with HIV/AIDS maintain health and independence. That is, they are a welfare organisation. The research GMHC supports is behavioural and epidemiological rather than clinical. If, however, you search the GMHC web site with the word ‘animal,’ what do you get? A whole load of results detailing HIV/AIDS research that has depended on animals! (Also see the RDS web site on the use of animals in AIDS research.)
PCRM may be able to slice the bologna thin enough to assert that GMHC itself doesn’t fund animal research, but one has serious trouble imagining that GMHC discounts the importance of animal research in treating AIDS. At least PeTA high priestess Ingrid Newkirk leaves you in no doubt where she and PeTA stand. In a September 1989 Vogue interview, Newkirk said even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, ‘We’d be against it.’ But then again, what do you expect from an organisation that reportedly contributed over $70,000 to the legal defence of an eco/animal extremist who served four years in prison for a $1.2 million arson attack on a university laboratory(1), and who is now charged with ‘distribution of information relating to explosives, destructive devices, and weapons of mass destruction’?
In explaining their relationship with Coronado, Newkirk and PeTA continue to borrow from the Clinton canon, essentially protesting that, ‘we did not have inappropriate relations with that man, Mister Coronado.’ And what do you know? A movement is afoot to impeach Newkirk.
(1) Keith Dovkants, ‘The ugly face of PeTA,’ Evening Standard, 17 February 2006; to request a copy of the article, ring + (0)207 620 0022 or e-mail news@standard.co.uk.
<Wrap up...>
February 25, 2006 | Saturday
What peaceful protest is all about
What impressed me most about today’s Pro-Test rally in support of the Oxford University research facility was how good-natured it was. There was no doubt that people were passionate about the cause. But there was simply no need for any aggression. No need to shout or hurl abuse. And no deriding people with different points of view. The message was simple and clear - a huge number of people support good science and life-saving medical research. They want to see the research centre built, without fear of intimidation and violence. Good luck to you Pro-Test!
February 20, 2006 | Monday
Pro-Test appeals to reason
By
Zebedee | Filed in
Debate /
While SPEAK arrogantly compare themselves to the Tiananmen Square protesters and the seizure of their leaflets by police to censorship of those events by the Chinese government, a quiet and peaceful revolution is underway in Oxfordshire. Tigger first blogged here about Pro-Test and its founder a couple of weeks ago.
Now, with just a few days to go until what promises to be a major pro-research rally in Oxford, the founder of Pro-Test describes how the group came to be formed on an ordinary day out with friends in Oxford last month. It’s worth reading for his good humour in the face of the in-your-face abuse and insults that seem to be the stock-in-trade of ‘peaceful’ animal rights activists.
He starts:
"From a reasonably early age, I’ve felt that science and knowledge are the most important things humanity possesses, and indeed what defines humanity as a species, and separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. My view is that humans are the dominant race on this planet and, not for any spiritual reasons, but pragmatically, we therefore have a right to use lower life forms for our benefit. I’m not talking about using animals simply for our amusement, and I’m not suggesting that animal welfare isn’t an issue, but what I do believe is that if an animal can be used to save a human, or even significantly improve human quality of life, then that’s entirely justifiable.”
Laurie a.k.a. Sqrrl101
No SPEAK-style grandiosity for Laurie. He concludes by placing medical research and benefits for patients squarely at the centre of the debate where it should be:
"receiving e-mails of support from people with life-threatening diseases thanking me for fighting for their right to treatment has been great."
February 14, 2006 | Tuesday
How to win friends and influence people
By
Zebedee | Filed in
Debate /
Anyone can hang out at the Oxford University chat forum, where students debate the issues of the day. Last time I looked it had around 1,000 posts in several threads about animal research and animal rights extremism. This debate seems to have been prompted by the upcoming student-led Pro-Test in favour of the University research centre currently under construction. As you might expect from this premier seat of learning, the discussion is mostly articulate, well-informed and fair-minded. Light relief comes in the form of wit, banter and expletives. From the students, that is.
A handful of animal rights activists are involved, presumably trying to change the views of most students who can see the need for animal research. The activists aren’t doing themselves any favours. One, a “former marine” who calls himself “Britches”, doesn’t seem to have grasped even the first principles of debate. He had posted no less than 200 times when he said:
I myself do not care what the majority of students at Oxford University think. Anyone who is for the lab and is a student at Oxford are only shit on the bottom of my shoe. Just a dirty mess you wipe off. “Britches", 13 February 2006
I wonder why he’s wasting his time there, then?
February 06, 2006 | Monday
RDS Exec's (not so) shady past…
By
Tigger | Filed in
Debate /
SPEAK keep providing me with such good fodder: in their savage personal attack on Pro-Test’s leader (see Pro-Test: in very good hands), they also have a pop at RDS’ very own Simon Festing about his appointment to…
the top position of the main organisation sponsored by the vivisection industry, the Research Defence Society (RDS); a man who played a pivotal role in the campaign to stop the Newbury bypass, a campaign often referred to as ‘The Battle of Newbury’ because of the often illegal nature of the campaign, and thus hardly a man in a position to condemn others for acting in a manner Governments deem unacceptable.
SPEAK, 1st Feb 2006
I decided to ask Simon about his shady past. Here’s what he had to say about the questionable tactics…
The campaign against the building of the Newbury bypass was overwhelmingly one of peaceful protest. Many ordinary local people were involved. We had peaceful rallies where thousands walked the route of the bypass without any need to use loudhailers or hurl abuse at people. Locals who were in favour of the road scheme did not feel threatened or intimidated. It is true that many protestors were arrested for their actions – such as sitting in front of bulldozers or staying up trees. I supported such actions morally, as long as they were carried out without harming or harassing anyone, and those involved took the consequences of their actions. This could not be more different to the animal rights extremists who hide their faces behind balaclavas. Only cowards threaten children and students, or lob bricks through windows in the dead of night and then run off.
We have a long history of peaceful protest in the UK which must be upheld. But protest is only one part of winning arguments. Just because you protest, it doesn’t make you right. Oxford University have a legal right to build the new research centre, just as much as SPEAK have a right to peacefully protest about it.
<Wrap up...>
February 03, 2006 | Friday
Pro-Test: in very good hands
By
Tigger | Filed in
Debate /
Oxford latest - a new anti-antivivisection protest group is in town, wittily named Pro-Test.
SPEAK seems to be immensely threatened by this new development and has launched a scathing personal attack - of no less than 1,015 words! - on Pro-Test’s founder, Laurie (16, male, and wants to be a med student), which is oblivious to the fact that he is entitled to his own opinion – something SPEAK is very hot on claiming for itself. It seems that the only people that can exercise their democratic right to free speech are those who conform to the SPEAK manifesto.
Now, I was going to comment on SPEAK’s article, pointing out that attacking a minor so ferociously (and on points irrelevant to the subject at hand) could be seen as a bit pathetic and desperate. Or I could note that Laurie’s webposts that SPEAK has got so worked up over are either surprisingly insightful and grounded for a 16-year-old (one notes that the government/ society’s position on drugs is a little inconsistent when you consider the status of alcohol and nicotine and the damage they do – but crucially, do in a taxable way), or obviously tongue-in-cheek. I personally found it refreshing to see that an adolescent can comment on their growing pains in a humorous, articulate and gently self-deprecating manner rather than the self-indulgent angst more commonly exhibited, and which I certainly witnessed amongst my own peers.
However, having seen Laurie’s mature response which is short and to the point:
SPEAK has released a statement regarding my personal life. I would like to point out that this is not only clearly libellous but completely irrelevant. I and other members of Pro-Test have as much right to free speech as anyone else, and this attempt to defame my character and intimidate me simply detracts from the issues at hand.
Pro-Test, 2nd Feb 2006
I realise that this is someone who needs no defenders - he is clearly more than capable of holding his own, and will not being drawn into irrelevant slanging matches but will focus on the debate in hand.
Perhaps SPEAK is right to feel as threatened as it so obviously is – not only has it been shown that it does not speak for the majority; but also that the opposing teenage commentary is more articulate, better reasoned, and respectful of others than SPEAK has ever shown itself.
Welcome to the arena Pro-Test, and keep up the good work.
<Wrap up...>
January 13, 2006 | Friday
Charisma combined with misunderstanding
The British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection has paid tribute to Tony Banks, highlighting an article he wrote a year before his death. It is certainly sad to see someone with so much personality pass away. But his view of animal research was deeply misguided.
In claiming that animal research “appears to be torture”, Mr Banks lost touch with reality. Even the virulent National Anti Vivisection Society (NAVS) gave a more reasonable version to the House of Lords Select Committee. The NAVS said about “torturing the animals” that they “have not encountered that sort of thing”.
Mr Banks also claims that Ray Greek, medical director of the now discredited animal rights organisation Europeans for Medical Progress, “is one of our most respected scientists”. In fact Greek is a non-practising American anaesthesiologist. He claims to be “widely published”, but is not - at least not in respectable journals.
BUAV describe Mr Bank’s views as ‘trenchant’. We think ‘entrenched’ might have been a better description. Like other antivivisectionists, Tony Banks would have done well to check his facts from time to time.
January 10, 2006 | Tuesday
PeTA picked a peck of . . . baloney, actually
By
Stonefish | Filed in
Debate /
Reading previous posts on this blog you would think the good folks at PeTA are running out of feet in which to shoot themselves:
First they’re artfully demolished by comedians (see PeTA = hypocritical bull***t, say Penn & Teller), second they get done for snuffing disingenuously ‘rescued’ cats and dogs (see Latest on PeTA killings and PeTA - animal killers), and finally their good buddy Jerry Vlasak – former spokesperson for PeTA-funded Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) – told the United States Senate he believes that assassinating scientific researchers is ‘morally justifiable’ (see this 27 October 2005 San Francisco Chronicle article for news on the Senate hearing and this 1 August 2004 Observer article for background on the PeTA/PCRM connection). PeTA may protest they’ve ‘distanced’ themselves from Vlasak, but evidently not far enough to remove his endorsements from their web sites – visit the PeTA India site for an example.
So. Only one foot left – and that’s if you’re a cat or dog.
But just in case you are a cat or a dog, let’s not forget that PeTA has more ways to show you their love than the ol’ hypodermic hello. As the former dean of the University of Pittsburgh’s Graduate School of Public Health pointed out in a recent article, PeTA’s opposition to any and all animal research harms animals as well as humans. Animals – including pets, upon whose owners PeTA depends for its multimillion-dollar yearly donations – live longer and longer because they don’t die of distemper, rabies, or scads of other diseases that wouldn’t have been eradicated without animal research. If PeTA had their way, however, these animal-life-saving discoveries would never have been made, and research that may offer further medical benefits to animals would stop today.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if PeTA made clear their ultimate goals. You know, if the Great and Powerful PeTA showed Mr or Ms Companion-Animal-Owning Contributor the man behind the curtain? Oh, wait – that can’t happen in PeTA’s Land of Oz . . . because Toto died of heartworm years ago.
Seriously, with friends like PeTA our pets don’t need enemies. And one certainly doesn’t envy PeTA their enemies, which, it now becomes clear, include the FBI. And are PeTA really pets’ best and most responsible representatives? After all PeTA’s travails, including recent ‘staff attrition’ caused by a wave of animal/eco-arson arrests in the US, they’re left with a Youth Outreach Coordinator who has legally changed his name to KentuckyFriedCruelty.com. One hopes he’ll be too busy applying for a new driver’s licence to reach out to too many youth . . .
<Wrap up...>
January 05, 2006 | Thursday
There's plenty of support for animal research
The tiny minority of people in this country who are campaigning to abolish all animal research are highly vociferous and vitriolic. This can sometimes create an impression of hostility to animal research which is the opposite of reality. We often find we have support in unexpected places, as this article in New Statesman nicely illustrates.
December 14, 2005 | Wednesday
Disappointment all round?
The British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection claims to be disappointed that the Animals drama-documentary screened on digital television this Monday concentrated so heavily on animal rights extremism. BUAV are dismayed that the programme did not allow either anti-vivisection scientists or organisations working entirely within the law an opportunity to be heard.
We guess that’s a rare case of disappointment all round then. We were dismayed that there was so little portrayal of the animals which make up 96% of all research animals, namely rodents, fish and birds. The shocking images we see from the antivivisection groups are far from representative, so much of what goes on in research centres is probably just too dull for television!